| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| aval |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 7:10:10 PM
First, I'm not a consultant by profession. But as some of you probably know, having read at least some of my almost 3000 posts, that I enjoy working with Active Directory and especially Exchange for the last couple years.
I've made more and more professional connections over the last two years and have expressed my interest in using my skills outside (but not necessarily in place) of my current position (which seems rather stable and maybe not something to toss out the window so lightly).
What was bound to happen finally happened. A professional contact referred me to someone else who asked what services I offer concerning Exchange. This is a relatively small not-for-profit organization that is looking to upgrade from E2K7 (presumably to E2K10, unless they opt for a less probable solution like Zimbra or Groupwise - I've *just* received an email, very few details at this point).
First, it looks like they want help planning the upgrade. What do we need to do? In what order?
I understand that some consultants well... simply provide consulting (!) and do not necessarily perform the migration (although they could), let alone managing the messaging system afterwards.
I have a pretty decent idea how to plan such a migration, especially for a small organization that does not span three continents with Exchange servers in 20 differents sites.
But how do I interact with the client?
This is how I see it.
I will ask the client a number of questions. I can base these questions on samples in "Exchange Server 2010 Best Practices" or other sources.
BTW, if any of you would have something like this that you'd be willing to share, in part or in whole, that would be very generous of you. You know, how you determine if the onsite or cloud option would be the best. I know some of this (are you subject to laws that would disallow storing data outside the country?, etc.) but do not have a formal questionnaire.
Once I have the answers to the questions, I can propose a solution.
But now we get to the part where I must admit I don't have a clue:
What do I charge for this type of work?
Let's say I produce a 10 page document, an overview of the process and their people take it from there. What do you charge for that?
What if it's a 100 page document that's practically a step by step, start to finish procedure?
Do you charge by page (kind of doubt that)? By the hours it required to research the different aspects of the plan and then type it up?
And how much?
This is a not-for profit so I do not plan to make a fortune. Assuming we do end up working together (that may not even happen), I would like to make something from this, besides a good reference and something beyond my first (and only "real") Exchange deployment from 3 years ago in my current workplace.
I did google for "Exchange consultant rates" and found this:
http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/uk/exchange%20consultant.do
This is in pounds but it looks like just under 40 for the hour and 300 for the day? Does that sound right?
That's very roughly $65/$475 US (or Canadian, since we're almost at parity) or 48/360 euros.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| aval |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 5:23:57 PM
Employer: as long as there is no conflict of interest. Many employees, especially half-time, have two or three jobs.
Exchange Online or Google: I did suggest the Cloud option in an email. Not having access to their finances, I do not know how much they would save.
Liability: according to the State Farm rep, options vary from state to state. I asked why E&O would not be available and that was the reason he gave me.
My counterpart from the non-profit said they cold probably provide me with a "hold harmless" clause.
I'll probably end up consulting a lawyer. Would need to know to what extent that would protect me. |
| lady_mcse |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 2:07:08 PM
Never been a consultant. Worked for one non-profit. Loved JamesNT's assessment ... the place I worked for was interesting, but most of what he said applies (particularly the glorified titles part!).
Have you checked with your current employer as to whether this is allowable under your current contract? I was a teacher long ago and most teachers had SOME form of side-job, even if it was summer-only. However as a non-Educator, you may have a different contract by which you need to abide.
Less than 20 users? I'd be shouting cloud at the top of my lungs. Google does a very nice job for many non-profits and educational agencies. Exchange isn't just the server and licensing, it's also the spam management, antivirus, remote access, mobile device access, there's a lot to consider. And for only 20 users, it just seems extreme to maintain a dedicated environment. The non-profit lawyers probably have to be convinced, but showing the finances of it might help sway them.
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| netmarcos |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 3:48:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Curt
Well, Dave... Talk to the lawyers or the agents.
What he said.
C-Corp, S-Corp, LLC, Sole Proprietorship, DBA, etc. If you are making enough money to have any tax impact, you had better find out. |
| Curt |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 3:24:12 PM
Well, Dave. This is the way things can be.
Talk to the lawyers or the agents.
If you want to protect your customers and your self, do the research.
Remember that "good will" goes when someone else's job is on the line.
So get the facts. It can be rewarding. But in a forum like this we can't go over all the answers.
I'd have to charge by the hour, buddy.
quote:
Originally posted by aval
Legal advice before signing the insurance policy contract?
If you are technically not a business - were just planning to do this from time to time on a personal basis - what does that change?
I'm seeing references to C-Corp, S-Corp, everything but the Marine Corp, and I'm not sure any of that applies to me.
What about independent contractors? People that do not work for a business and do not have an official or established business?
Wouldn't my status be something more like that. If you read this already quote long thread, I was only planning to provide consulting on the side, occasionally, but apparently still with the risk, slight perhaps, of having someone sue you, if nothing else as an excuse to not pay you.
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| aval |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 3:18:23 PM
Legal advice before signing the insurance policy contract?
If you are technically not a business - were just planning to do this from time to time on a personal basis - what does that change?
I'm seeing references to C-Corp, S-Corp, everything but the Marine Corp, and I'm not sure any of that applies to me.
What about independent contractors? People that do not work for a business and do not have an official or established business?
Wouldn't my status be something more like that. If you read this already quote long thread, I was only planning to provide consulting on the side, occasionally, but apparently still with the risk, slight perhaps, of having someone sue you, if nothing else as an excuse to not pay you. |
| netmarcos |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 2:45:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Curt
When doing business as a LLC or S-corp, the liability is not yours but the corp's.
Many clients - particularly if your working relationship is 1099-corp to corp - will require that the legal entity have E&O insurance. In my own C-Corp background, that was a $2 million liability policy mandated by the majority of the agreements entered into.
What you do personally with State Farm is a private concern.
Individual mileage and performance may vary. Seek competent legal advice before signing any and all contracts. |
| Curt |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 2:17:06 PM
You just want the law suite coverage like what they offer.
When doing business as a LLC or S-corp, the liability is not yours but the corp's.
At least that's to the best of my understanding from the legal advise I've paid for.
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| aval |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 1:59:44 PM
Curt wrote:
quote:
Well, State Farm has business policies for less then 300 a year.
I just got a response from the State Farm rep saying that they do not provide E&O coverage to businesses, only "liability and contents" coverage.
Isn't E&O what you would want in IT? -> Cover a mistake that costs the client money - or just cover cost of a frivolous lawsuit?
Besides that, I don't really have an established business, but that's another story. |
| aval |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 12:17:56 PM
quote:
Why, do we know their requirements? Do we know their expectations? Are they using Outlook 2003 maybe? Their workflow in Public Folders? Required to be able to restore from backup? Bandwith and latency?
Right, Public Folders would be a deal breaker from what I heard in the MS "Edge" videos with Adam "Bomb" Carter. EDIT - the Office 365 videos:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/Video/hh463580
I've asked some preliminary questions to get an idea whether I can handle this or not. Public Folders, sure. But UM? I don't *think* they have that, but if they did, that's not something I know. |
| aval |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 12:12:10 PM
I wanted to be as honest as possible and did mention Office 365 as an option - even though that would probably eliminate me as a consultant, since, at this time, I do not know enough about Office 365 to perform a migration (if you look at my posts in the Exchange forum, you'll see that I'm planning to "work on that").
The choice is so obvious I had to mention it because afterwards, they could say "Hey, this would have saved us $xxxx."
But they apparently do not want the cloud.
And as far as I know (?), Exchange 2010 has minimal requirements, like 8 GB of RAM (or 10 GB depending on sources). That's for a "typical" install: CA, HT, MB. There is no clause in the minimum requirements that "if you only have 10 users, you only need 4 GB of RAM".
It *might* work, but could you be putting yourself in a situation where MS might say, "Hey, that configuration is not supported. Sorry, we can't help"? |
| Jazzy |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 12:03:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Pesos
That being said, this group is crazy to not go with Office 365 at their size. Total waste of funds!
Why, do we know their requirements? Do we know their expectations? Are they using Outlook 2003 maybe? Their workflow in Public Folders? Required to be able to restore from backup? Bandwith and latency?
Listen to customer first and ask many questions. Then you can decide if Office 365 would bring benefits or not. And for a consultant both options are fine, in both situations you can earn some bucks by helping the organisation to the desired situation. |
| Curt |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 11:56:43 AM
I agree on Office 365.
But it's a trust issue as well.
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| Curt |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 11:48:25 AM
Always have a retreat from a problem planned.
And expect unknowns.
I went to training with Microsoft Consulting Services for a few years in a row and learned loads of strategies for managing expectations.
quote:
Originally posted by aval
quote:
[...] even though I limited my liability to a max in my conditions.
How do you do that?
General concepts, principles here, because what is legally valid in the Netherlands may not be in the US, for the details.
How do you limit your responsibility... without appearing irresponsible?
You can't tell the client that "if I screw up bad, well, that's your problem". Nobody would ever consider hiring such a consultant.
On the other hand, there's factors beyond your control. They may not have redundancy (maybe they're running their Exchange server on a RAID 0 array...) and one disk, one disk mind you, fails in the middle of the migration.
I'd be interested in learning more about limiting your liability without looking like you cannot accept responsibility.
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| JamesNT |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 11:20:51 AM
Pesos,
First, I love you more than you love me. :)
Secondly, as predicted, Pesos did disagree with me on my points. Believe me, this is a good thing. Do not allow my bad experiences to cloud your judgement. But, at the same time, watch your back.
But doesn't that advice apply to everything?
JamesNT |
| Pesos |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 11:18:37 AM
I run my own company, and we work solely with nonprofits. And James, I love you but you paint with far too broad a brush, my friend. Everything you say can be applied to countless small businesses, and it certainly does not apply to all nonprofit organizations. There are many healthy, well-run NPOs/NGOs and I am lucky to work with a number of them. It's no different than for-profit clients - if you find yourself in a bad situation with a bad client, you didn't do your homework and made your own bed.
That being said, this group is crazy to not go with Office 365 at their size. Total waste of funds! |
| Jazzy |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 11:15:28 AM
Just wondering, what are typical rates for general IT consultancy in the US? In The Netherlands the rates are:
- 30-40 euro: Helpdesk professional
- 50-60 euro: junior engineer/consultant
- 60-80 euro: medior/senior consultant
- 100-150 euro: top consultants/specialist/niche player
Of course the rates are depending on the length of the project and many other variables, but from what I see around me this is more or less what's being paid. |
| aval |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 11:07:25 AM
quote:
Well, State Farm has business policies for less then 300 a year.
I must be on the right track. That's exactly the company I contacted!
At this point though, I am not planning to start a business.
I'm looking into the IRS side of it too. Unless I'm mistaken, independent contractors (which would probably be my status), have to pay estimated tax quarterly?
Otherwise, for rates, and since this is a not-for-profit, I said I would charge a maximum of $50/hr. We can negotiate from that point. If they say OK, fine. If not, and if I have to come down, I should at least get something out of it - besides the experience of course.
Since I have not committed myself at this point, verbally or in writing, I can still decline if I feel the conditions are just not right.
Thanks for the input Curt. As someone who knows the US system, your input is invaluable.
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| Curt |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 07:06:42 AM
Well, State Farm has business policies for less then 300 a year.
You can start an LLC for lesss then 400.
I worked as a consultant for a very long time while I kept my full time job.
It was very good, to get out there and do stuff outside of my 40 hour gig.
Its no big deal to start up an LLC or sole propriotorship.
The write up of a project plan should be by the hour with a Price cap so they can know what to expect. Don't give away too much.
I give away some things but not everything.
So consider yourself valuble.
Non profits are all different. I did work to help a place to train blind workers. I am So GLAD I did it. Some people do not even have eyes to fix, so they need something.
But I did not do it all for nothing.
They paid "something". You will find out quick that you have to make a living. I have over 40 years of volunteer work behind me, and I can say I have been rewarded beyond my efforts.
But for a business, you have to charge.
quote:
Originally posted by JSCLMEDAVE
David along with the above advice. What about liability insurance? Take into mind as well that IF something - anything - happens after you leave, you will probably be the first to get a call and in "some" cases will have to prove it was not your doing.
James and Curt work for themselves, they should know more about the liability insurance and rates etc.
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| aval |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 8:23:40 PM
Concerning Evgenij's comment about their "rules and conditions", who writes up the contract then?
Because, and although this was initially meant to be something rather informal, it would be preferable to define at least some of the conditions in a written document.
There's no lack of samples online, so I can look at those if need be.
BTW, this is NOT happening "tomorrow" and probably no sooner than a month from now (I was told 30-60 days).
In particular, that will give me plenty of time to discuss liability with the insurance rep I'll be speaking with Monday. |
| JamesNT |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 11:19:32 AM
aval,
Before I get started, two things:
1. I will probably be the voice of doom and gloom. That is not my intention, I'm just relaying my experiences.
2. I have not read through all the replies thus far.
I must recommend that you steer clear of non-profits. I have worked for a few over the years and, with the exception of one, they are all the same.
* Most non-profits have no money at all. Because of this, they half-ass everything. You have no reasonable expectation of the project turning out correctly and by best practices. If you quote a $4000 server, they will demand you purchase the $2000 one.
* Most non-profits have no money because there are too many hands in the cookie jar - most of them robbing from it. Non-profits are not lean-and-mean like regular companies. You'll see staff with gloriated titles walking around all day and you'll have no idea what they do all day. Yet, again, you are expected to do everything on the cheap.
* Oh, and even though you do everything on the cheap, they EXPECT it to run like a brand new BMW.
* Prepare to be used. Remember, they have no money, but they need your services. You'll get calls for everything from here on out. As long as they can squeeze a yes out of you, make you feel obligated, etc., your ass belongs to them.
I apologize for all the harshness, I truly do. But this is how I've been treated by non-profits. All I can do is report my experiences. Others will, of course, disagree with me. Pesos will be among the first because he works with non-profits all day. Somehow, he doesn't have these problems. Go figure.
JamesNT |
| cj_berlin |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 09:59:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy
The point here is, I can write anything I want in my conditions but in the end a judge will decide if I'm to blame and can order me to pay a compensation anyway.
Right. Besides, the customer will probably have rules and conditions of their own, and as likely as not, one of these conditions will be stating that any business with them is carried out strictly under *their* conditions... |
| aval |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 3:55:22 PM
When the mutual acquaintance referred me to the IT guy from the organization in question, I think the intention was just for me to help out.
My objective is not to become a professional consultant - but it looks like even if you just intend to give a hand, elements like taxes (if you're paid anything) and liability complicate the situation quite quickly. |
| aval |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 3:49:01 PM
quote:
And if I'm being too direct, I apologize.
No need to apologize.
I did not perceive what you had to say as being agressive or belittling.
I'd rather have someone tell it to me as it is. That's not always flattering for the ego but at least things are clear. |
| aval |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 3:45:10 PM
quote:
First option is to stay in the comfort zone and tell them you can do only Exchange and nothing else.
That is precisely what I meant here:
quote:
I would have to stick with the Exchange part (if I end up doing anything) because I would have NO idea how to virtualize CRM. Nor is my relatively limited experience with VMware ESXi enough to make me anything of an expert (assuming they even go with VMware).
quote:
One of the other questions you need to ask yourself is if your really gonna do this in the evenings and weekends. How about face to face meetings, are you going to ask them to come in on a saturday?
I stated from the outset that I have a full time position and that if my presence was needed, it would only be at those times. FWIW, their IT guy says that is exactly what would work with him. Physical presence is not even required at this point - just planning.
I will explain that I could only assist with the Exchange part. Yes, they may prefer to work with someone who could manage all those aspects and that would be that. |
| Jazzy |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 3:32:31 PM
And if I'm being too direct, I apologize. Blame it on Dutch directness: http://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2011/05/28/dutch-directness/  |
| Jazzy |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 3:29:29 PM
David, try to get your mind around this. Your talking about CRM, Exchange, taxes, VMware, liability and rates in a single post! Try if you can break it all up into two or three questions.
First question should be, have I enough information to decide if I want to work as an independant consultant? The answer is obviously: no. Taxes, liability and rates are only a couple of the aspects you need to think about. Why don't you make an appointment at your local chamber of commerce next week? They probably offer free advice to people considering to start a business or going independant.
For reverence, I toook 6 months to prepare for my current business. Could've done it in less time if I just wanted to work independent but I chose to start a real bussiness. I know people who take as short as a few weeks to get everything in order but you really need to think about stuff. One of the other questions you need to ask yourself is if your really gonna do this in the evenings and weekends. How about face to face meetings, are you going to ask them to come in on a saturday? What if Outlook isn't working and they have a problem at 9 AM? Does your current employee even allow you to have another job?
Regarding the rest of your post. You have several options. First option is to stay in the comfort zone and tell them you can do only Exchange and nothing else. Another option is to partner with a more experienced consultant and have him take care of the stuff that's new for you. Chance is they ask someone who can do the other things and migrate Exchange too. What would you do if you where in their shoes? Or take a risk and be prepared to learn something about VMware and CRM.
If you ask me, I would let go the current opportunity and take some time to prepare. I don't think you feel confident enough at the moment. |
| aval |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 2:47:22 PM
I have some more information.
Exchange environment is smaller - significantly smaller - than the one I manage now: 125+ users versus less than 20.
Nothing fancy - no large files, attachments apparently.
That's what I've learned from the initial discussion.
Trick is they want in house (already mentioned hosted solution with them - against) and virtualized with two file servers and *maybe* MS Dynamics CRM.
Curt?
Anyway...
Virtualization platform: undecided.
I would have to stick with the Exchange part (if I end up doing anything) because I would have NO idea how to virtualize CRM. Nor is my relatively limited experience with VMware ESXi enough to make me anything of an expert (assuming they even go with VMware).
One way to limit liability, I suppose, is not tinkering with technology about which you are completely ignorant.
This would all be virtualized on one server since at less than 20 users, it's hard to justify the cost of a second server for DAG.
So, as far as Exchange goes, it looks like it MIGHT be something I could handle. True, I do not have all the details, since I have not yet submitted a questionnaire or gone on site.
------
Otherwise, for the liability part, I'd be interested in what tht would cost (US $).
I've seen figures for $300/year but if that would apply to what I'd be doing, or if there's better pricing out there.
Then there's the contract... I've seen some samples on line.
Anyone think it would be possible to ask for a low rate with a non-liability clause in return?
Here's one way to look at it. Even without this opportunity, I would be spending hours working with AD, Exchange and now some PKI, and not making a penny. Even at $10 or $20 an hour, I would be doing better.
On the other hand, I do believe, especially if the Exchange environment proves to be as simple as it appears, that I may very well be up to this and that I do have real expertise to offer, expertise that's worth something.
They do expect to pay me (something), since they are asking about my rates. |
| Jazzy |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 2:14:40 PM
In my conditions I say that I cannot be held liable for more than the total sum of the project. The point here is, I can write anything I want in my conditions but in the end a judge will decide if I'm to blame and can order me to pay a compensation anyway.
In the end it comes down to trust. It's people doing bussiness with people, not bussiness. When customer trusts you, the small print gets less important and customer will not think you're irresponsible at all. |
| aval |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 12:39:01 PM
quote:
[...] even though I limited my liability to a max in my conditions.
How do you do that?
General concepts, principles here, because what is legally valid in the Netherlands may not be in the US, for the details.
How do you limit your responsibility... without appearing irresponsible?
You can't tell the client that "if I screw up bad, well, that's your problem". Nobody would ever consider hiring such a consultant.
On the other hand, there's factors beyond your control. They may not have redundancy (maybe they're running their Exchange server on a RAID 0 array...) and one disk, one disk mind you, fails in the middle of the migration.
I'd be interested in learning more about limiting your liability without looking like you cannot accept responsibility. |
| Jazzy |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 12:08:21 PM
Interesting. I work quite a lot in education and they get licenses for almost free indeed. But for consultancy they pay a regular rates, the same goes for healtcare, cultural and charity organizations.
Regarding liability, it's just like high availability. You hope it never happens but design for the worst. Imagine you make a small mistake and the company looses a big order. Then there's a chance they gonna sue you and claim the lost money. There is a chance the judge orders you to pay them what they claim and you can sell your home. You probably don't want that risk.
At the moment I have some customers who demand I have insurance, even though I limited my liability to a max in my conditions. They want to be able, when disaster happens, to claim the damage somewhere.
quote:
If it's a migration in it's most simple form... maybe. If there's BES involved, for example, yes, I have managed that but not in the course of a migration, so if it looks too complex, the honest (and safe) option would be to bow out.
On the other hand, you have Google and can spend an hour to find out how BES handles the mailboxes moved to a new server. Tell customer you have not done that particular job before but have all the skills to gather the information you need to perform the job. How do you think consultants stay competitive in the business, you have to, no need to accept a challenge now and then. I mean, knowledge and experience is valuable but the right skills to gather knowledge is key. |
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