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wlazara
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
2607 Posts
Status: offline |
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Xenophane
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Denmark
2775 Posts
Status: online |
 Posted - 07/23/2008 : 03:21:43 AM
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| Cool.. Will have to give that a try when it is released... |
SIG> George Bernard Shaw : The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. </SIG>
You can read my blog at www.xipher.dk |
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joe_elway
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
6673 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 04:06:06 AM
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Now that is interesting.
Questions for the VMware folks: I've only ever worked with the full blown ESX product. What is the downside of using ESXi VS ESX? Am I right in thinking ESXi does not have the Linux "parent" or host (VM) OS? Does ESXi have limited managability compared to ESX? |
Aidan Finn
MCSE, MVP (Virtual Machine: Systems Administration)
IT Blog: http://www.aidanfinn.com
My Photography: http://www.aidanfinnphoto.com/
My Hyper-V Book: Mastering Hyper-V Deployment
Twitter: http://twitter.com/joe_elway |
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joe_elway
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
6673 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 05:23:01 AM
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From: http://feeds.feedburner.com/DataCenterStrategiesBlog?format=xml
"Most production virtualization deployments include high availability, and if you want to add high availability to the free ESXi hypervisor, you'll need to upgrade to a VMware Infrastructure (VI) Standard license, priced at $3,624 for two processors. Upgrading to the Enterprise license ($6,958 for two processors) would get you features such as VMotion (live migration) and the distributed resource scheduler (DRS). The reason I'm bringing up upgrade prices is twofold. First, I don't think VMware is doing enough with regards to price drops. Second, since practically all VMware sales include the standard or enterprise VI tiers, the impact on revenues will be practically non-existent".
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Aidan Finn
MCSE, MVP (Virtual Machine: Systems Administration)
IT Blog: http://www.aidanfinn.com
My Photography: http://www.aidanfinnphoto.com/
My Hyper-V Book: Mastering Hyper-V Deployment
Twitter: http://twitter.com/joe_elway |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 07:48:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe_elway
Now that is interesting.
Questions for the VMware folks: I've only ever worked with the full blown ESX product. What is the downside of using ESXi VS ESX? Am I right in thinking ESXi does not have the Linux "parent" or host (VM) OS? Does ESXi have limited managability compared to ESX?
ESX3i is the same hypervisor as all ESX versions. It is a bare metal hypervisor which your are correct in thinking that it does not have a root/parent domain or host. There is no OS that is in between the hypervisor and the hardware-in other words, the hypervisor is the OS. It does not require the virtualization CPU extensions (AMD-V - Intel-VT); however, it can take advantave of them if present (and for Intel CPUs, those extensions are required to do 64-bit VMs) and although I haven't worked with it yet, can do paravirtualized VMs (Linux only, but I understand Novell is working on paravirtualized drivers for Windows guests). The main difference is that the Linux console has been removed which reduces the effective footprint to about 32MB. It has the same management options as all other ESX versions except that the Linux service console has been replaced with the DCUI or Direct Console User Interface. This is the version that is shipping on a memory card with HP, Dell, IBM, and any other hardware vendor that wants to include it (Xen also has a version that can go on a memory stick but I have not had a chance to look at it).
I see no downside to this at all and I believe this is where VMware is taking all versions. Removing the Linux based service console has been goal for a while, particularly since 90% of all VMs are Windows systems so usually Windows admins manage the systems and it has been a road block for many since they (incorrectly) think that you need to have Linux knowledge to install and manage VI3. Plus, most patches are related to the Linux part so by removing that, it lowers the attack surface and the patching surface.
As far as where it is placed with its competition, ESXi is the direct competition for Xen and Hyper-V. It is a stand-alone virtualization platform but it is fully upgradeable to the next levels of VI. Remember, there is no player currently in the same space as VI3 Enterprise. My current evaluation of Hyper-V and VMM 2008 is showing me that Microsoft is within a couple of years of something like vMotion/DRS and HA (without deploying MSCS). Over committing of resources, according to one road map I saw is still about 3 years away.
Even Red Hat's Xen with Live Migration is not the same as it moves the disk files. So the person saying the quote you included is being intellectually dishonest since you don't get HA with the base version of Hyper-V either-you have to roll out MSCS or some other clustering suite to get that.
ESXi is placed squarely at the same customer that would deploy Hyper-V or Xen. That customer is not interested or cannot justify the cost of HA, DRS, and the other enterprise features. It is not aimed at the enterprise customer since those generally don't blink an eye at the VI prices.
Also, this is step one. I fully expect wholesale slashes in the prices in the very near future. Remember, EMC was very smart in appointing an ex-Microsoft executive as CEO; very Art of War-ish. |
Mark Dean
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joe_elway
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
6673 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 09:35:01 AM
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Mark,
I'm just curious here, I'm not into the "my OS is my religion thing" so this expansion you've done is great. It'll give people a chance to pass the rubbish that's on the net. There's too much biased junk or fanatics on the net going "it's my way or the highway".
If there's no OS, is it possible to do things like hardware management/monitoring? I didn't look into it too much before, but I think HP used to install the SIM agents on the Linux OS. Are they putting those into an OEM version of the hypervisor now? Are we relying on agentless monitoring is we go with ESXi?
I guess I consider management of hosts to be more than allocation of VM's ... I like to monitor health/performance of the hypervisor and hardware. Is that still possible with ESXi? |
Aidan Finn
MCSE, MVP (Virtual Machine: Systems Administration)
IT Blog: http://www.aidanfinn.com
My Photography: http://www.aidanfinnphoto.com/
My Hyper-V Book: Mastering Hyper-V Deployment
Twitter: http://twitter.com/joe_elway |
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arek73
Moderator
Poland
4592 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 09:38:51 AM
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Hi Aidan,
Since the ESX 3i is in embedded form (usually comes as a USB stick on board of the server, but you can download it too) you won't be able to install 3rd party agents on it (Dell OpenManage, SIM, Navisphere). You might get some management/monitoring features when you connect 3i to Virtual Center. This is my understanding of how it works. |
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Arek |
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Playwell
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Netherlands
4061 Posts
Status: online |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 10:01:41 AM
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| It comes with the SDK though, so you can talk powershell/vb to it |
'People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. '
Quote by Isaac Asimov |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 10:05:11 AM
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"...you won't be able to install 3rd party agents on it..."
You have the same managment functions including hardware, which is exposed via a CIM broker in the vmkernel. There's also good ol' snmp and the VI API. You do not need Virtual Center at all as the rich VI Client offers a full Windows GUI management for everything that you used to have to do in the console. In fact, the setup of ESXi is about the same complexity as setting up a home based broadband router-just an IP address if you are not using DHCP and hostname at a minimum and you are up and running-attach via the VI Client and it is all point and click from there on. Of course, you can still do it all via command line, which I'm thankful for. It's Linux roots are still there, there's even a scaled down /proc so any of your scripts that pulled data from the /proc nodes-especially /proc/vmware will most likely still work.
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Mark Dean
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
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wlazara
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
2607 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 11:24:19 AM
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| Most vendors now offer hardware remote access/management/health cards that you can use rather than a software agent. |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
3000 Posts
Status: online |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 3:29:19 PM
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Shoot, last week I did a VMware course and they told me;
a) you'd have to pay.
b) it was hardware built into the MB of a server and Dell had one on the way.
c) this wasn't going to be announced for at least another month.
Now its free, out and apparently know publicly since late May.
Edit - MB instead of MD |
Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
“If you think competence is expensive,try incompetence.” - From a Training Manual |
Edited by - wobble_wobble on 07/23/2008 5:40:26 PM |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 4:46:13 PM
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Got to love IT training, the last class I took was the VMware 2.0 System I and II training-and I only did that because 1)the company I was working for was paying for it 2)it was required to become a VCP which was required to become an Enterprise Partner (able to sell ESX).
Other than that, I don't set foot in IT training classes anymore. Give me the product, the manuals (electronic please), and a couple of days with it in my lab and I'm set. I vowed to never take another Microsoft 'let's read to the class' "training" when I took the Upgrade to Windows 2000 from NT 4 MCSE class in 2000...
Was your instructor storage centric, server hardware centric or network centric? I ask because I've talked to several who have taken the VI3 courses and a couple said the guy was a SAN engineer so every anaology and everything was with a storage slant, others have said their instructor was a networking admin so it was all slanted for networking and the instructer could barely spell SAN, multipathing, and LUNs. My class was still in the early days so they flew out an actual VMware SE from the West coast (thankfully) so we got all the 'well the book says this but here's what your going to find' kind of stuff. I'm also thankful I don't have to go take a class to update my cert to VI3.5...it would bore the hell out of me-plus I'd have to pay for it myself-yuck! |
Mark Dean
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wlazara
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
2607 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 4:49:03 PM
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| Mark said it. I did MCSE and CCA when it was paid for, but probably wouldn't even do that again. MCSE 2003 was especially ridiculous - let's take a bunch of practice tests that are VERBATIM questions from the real test just in different order. The amazing thing was how many people in class were still failing the exams haha! |
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Dave Sweatt
Old Timer
USA
398 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 7:04:15 PM
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| I took the VI3.5 class a few months ago (company pay, natch) and the instructor we had was pretty decent. He was an outside contractor, so didn't just teach the class but mostly works in the field. Been doing ESX for ages and knew his stuff. Was well rounded, plus in addition to the class lab setups he'd plug into his test VI setup at his house and show us stuff he was doing there as well. I wouldn't have paid for it myself, but it was an OK class, for a formal class. |
Vegetarians eat vegetables.
Humanitarians frighten me. |
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Playwell
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Netherlands
4061 Posts
Status: online |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 05:20:55 AM
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| The downside is there's no console on the server. You can do things with the http interface and API's though just like the full blown version, so that's not a problem. |
'People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. '
Quote by Isaac Asimov |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 09:28:51 AM
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"The downside is there's no console on the server."
Just to make sure we're all on the same page, there is no Linux console as in the other editions as Playwell indicates, but there is a console and it is exposed via the RCLI which does NOT require Virtual Center to use. You can connect to the RCLI interface from Linux or Windows once you install the RCLI package. For instace, you can run esxcfg-vmknic just like you have always been able to run, etc. and it simply connects to the ESXi host and runs the command (after authentication-which can be saved for scripting). So think about what you use the shell to do in a standard ESX installation, outside of the esxcfg* commands, or parsing log files (which can still be done), or manipulating VM files on the /vmfs store (which can still be done via RCLI vifs command), most other things were managing the Linux console-which has been thankfully (and you have know idea how hard it is for me to admit it is a good idea) done away with. From a security standpoint it is phenomenal-you can even lockdown ESXi so that the only root access is via DCUI and Virtual Center only. Very good for many places for sure.
Really what VMware has done, is create an appliance that handles your virtualization and as much as I prefer to have a full blown Linux console (for my confort and 'I've always done it this way' part of the brain), I really think that is the way to go for a virtualization platform. |
Mark Dean
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
3000 Posts
Status: online |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 4:11:24 PM
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Looks like the free version is out a wee bit early.
Nope, apparently I was logged into the site and didn't need to login again to download it.
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Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
“If you think competence is expensive,try incompetence.” - From a Training Manual |
Edited by - wobble_wobble on 08/02/2008 4:15:52 PM |
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ukinahan
Moderator
USA
721 Posts
Status: offline |
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mikepiet
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
1842 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 7:16:04 PM
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Update: I did an Alt-f11 and was able to get this error message...failed trying to get a valid vmkernel mac address
There is not much out there on this issue but tomorrow I am going to try to add in a nic card and disable the on-board nic, and reinstall.
I downloaded ESXi yesterday and went to intall it today. So far, nothing. The hardware is a couple months old, Dell Optiplex 755 tower, Core2Duo Q6850, 3 gigs RAM, single 80 gig SATA hd.
The software installs, but according to the quick start guide, it should pull a DHCP address. Well, DHCP is working fine in my network (Windows DHCP)but yet the ESXi box fails to get an address. The admin address is showing as http://0.0.0.0
Not really sure how to troubleshoot this as I'm a Linux novice.
Wish me luck!
Michael |
Sinners Make The Best Saints |
Edited by - mikepiet on 08/06/2008 7:51:53 PM |
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slister
Here To Stay
New Zealand
199 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 7:53:46 PM
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Michael
It would appear it's an unsupported NIC.
some info http://communities.vmware.com/thread/137768 jsessionid=89224272FB63CECDBB9D8570C4D6A9D3?tstart=151
Cheers
Steve |
Man has to believe in something, I believe I'll have another beer. |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 9:13:56 PM
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"...Dell Optiplex 755 tower,...
Desktop hardware, not what ESX was intended to run on.
I know you are evaluating the product and not consolidating a data center, but the NICs and other components on a desktop motherboard are usually very different than on a server class system. I'm hoping that will change-especially if they open up some or all of their code. This is the reason that before specifying hardware, the first stop for me is not the vendor's web site but the VMware ESX HCL. You will live and die by that PDF.
An Intel e1000 NIC (PRO series) is golden for ESX so if the on-board NIC won't work, grab one of those off of eBay-I buy several to keep in stock for just these kinds of compatibility issues and I average about $15 to $20 per NIC including shipping.
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Mark Dean
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mikepiet
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
1842 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 01:04:32 AM
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Steve\Mark,
You guys are exactly correct. No go on that on-board nic. As Mark mentioned, it looks like most people use the Intel e1000's. I will look for some of those tonight.
Seems to me that this finickiness in hardware may ultimately hinder adoption on a wider scale. On the same machine, I can run x64 server 08 and hyperV just fine. I added a couple vm's and I'm good to go. It's odd that on the same hardware, I can run a NAC tool called SafeAccess from StillSecure and that runs Linux on the backend and nic's are recognized just fine. [shrugs shoulders]
On a side note, here is a quick walkthrough I came across on the vmware community site to get ESXi running on a Optiplex 755 (with a different NIC of course)
Hi guys,
I got it running on a 755 OptiPlex.
Pre-install:
* Go into the Bios and change the SATA operation to "Legacy"
* Enable Virtualization and VT for Direct I/O
* Disable NIC, the NIC on the mobo will not work
* Install a supported NIC. I installed an old HP 10/100 card for now. You can also buy a cheap, HP NC110T gbit card.
Reboot and insert the ESX CD. I used ESX 3.5 Update 1 (82663)
Install ESX and check if it loads and if you can open the website. Install the VI 2.5 and you will notice that you cannot create a datastore for the VM's.
Reboot the 755 and go into the Bios. Change the SATA operation to RAID Auto / ATA
Save changes, connect with VI to the ESX and you can now create a datastore. Create a datastore on the free disk space on the SATA disk. You can now create VM's!
I'm using a 755 DT with 8GB and a E6550 CPU. Again, you need another NIC as the other NIC is not supported by ESX |
Sinners Make The Best Saints |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 06:42:01 AM
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"...this finickiness in hardware may ultimately hinder adoption on a wider scale."
VMware is the market leader so it hasn't hindered them at all. It is the extremely tight HCL that has kept ESX from the pitfalls that Windows has with flaky drivers that cause instability. VMware would not be the market leader and would not have changed the landscape of the data center if its drivers were not so solid or if they had originally released their hypervisor as Open Source. If they had done the latter, it would be a lot like the myriads of Linux distros that are out there and at times are very different to work with and you'd also see the fractured mess that Xen has created with only a subset of the hypervisor in common with each vendor creating their own tools or features.
The only hinderence will be from those who try to run a server platform on a desktop (again, this may change but desktop virtualization is not where VMware has previously positioned ESX) or who run it on clearly not supported hardware. Hyper-V is at best a stand alone platform and is aimed at replacing desktop virtualization like Virtual PC since it is missing most of the things that a server virtualization platform requires. It's also aimed at the same shops that run VMware Server and other hosted platforms. But it has the clear advantage that if Windows runs and sees the hardware, then Hyper-V can use it. Xen also has that advantage, if Linux can see it, you're fine. Once Hyper-V becomes fully featured, then we'll see real competition in the high end virtualization arena. I'm looking forward to being able to drop a physical server into an AD OU, having it P2V'd automatically and then having it run within Hyper-V's version of DRS and HA. Now that would be cool.
"...runs Linux on the backend and nic's are recognized just fine. [shrugs shoulders]"
We used to have support personnel learn this phrase and say it over and over: "ESX is NOT Linux".
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Mark Dean
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ironmonk
Welcome Newcomer
2 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 2:24:25 PM
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We're experimenting with VMWare ESXi. Can anyone direct us to step by step command line reference?
Thanks! |
- Max |
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deandownsouth
Old Timer
USA
415 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 4:54:05 PM
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Although they've change the prefix from esxcfg to vicfg, there's symlinks so if you are used to esxcfg or have scripts that use esxcfg they'll still work. You also have to download the RCLI package so you'll have the binaries. I've only used the RCLI from a Linux workstation but they work the same from a Windows workstation from what I understand. There's also a RCLI appliance you can download.
Host Configuration: vicfg-advcfg
Storage Configuration: vicfg-nas, vicfg-swiscsi, vicfg-mpath, vicfg-rescan, vicfg-vmhbadevs, vmkfstools
Network Configuration: vicfg-vswitch, vicfg-vmknic, vicfg-route, vicfg-nics
Maint/Patch: vicfg-dumpart
Monitoring: resxtop
NTP Configuration: vicfg-ntp
SNMP Configuration: vicfg-snmp
syslog Configuration: vicfg-syslog
Host Config Backup/Restore: vicfg-cfgbackup
VMFS Store File Management: vifs, copy, mkdir, rmdir, remove
You have to authenticate to the ESXi host as part of the command and you can also authenticate against Virtual Center if you are running it. So to list NTP configuration you would issue the following:
$ vicfg-ntp --server=192.168.0.33 --username=root -list
It will prompt you for the password then execute the command.
Hope this helps. |
Mark Dean
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vmware giving away ESXi free to compete
