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x7c00
Here To Stay
USA
133 Posts
Status: offline |
 Posted - 05/14/2012 : 11:07:02 AM
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I met a lawyer the other day who is moving her office to the cloud. So far its been a mess They can't attach docs to emails from the cloud mapped drive. Some docs don't open at all they have to be downloaded to local machine first. They also can't save .pdf's. The .pdf's that were pushed up with the migration tool don't open unless first downloaded then they cannot be saved back to the cloud server. When they ask for help they get a call back 2 days later stating that this is a "Known" problem and they are working on it.
The next step is these people are going to move the lawyers email to their servers. They were sold on this service because the sales person told them that Google and Microsoft had next to no help desk. This may be partly true but I've never had problems storing or attaching a doc with Google and the mail has been really reliable. I'm not worried so much about privacy I grew up in a house with nine kids and one bathroom.
Timmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Ah Bartleby! Ah humanity! |
Edited by - x7c00 on 05/14/2012 11:10:45 AM |
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Jazzy
Administrator
Netherlands
1932 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/14/2012 : 12:37:08 PM
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So the lawyers office is not happy with a service and a migration tool. Did they evaluate the service properly? Did they deploy a pilot first?
I bet they're not telling you the whole story. If this is the whole story, they're a bunch of idiots who get what the deserve. |
Jetze Mellema
Exchange specialist
Former MVP (2005-2012)
My blog: http://jetzemellema.blogspot.com (Dutch)
My company: http://www.imara-ict.nl/ |
Edited by - Jazzy on 05/14/2012 12:38:26 PM |
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x7c00
Here To Stay
USA
133 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/14/2012 : 1:02:27 PM
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Idiot is such a strong word. But yes they are. They're nice idiots. They married the first guy who was nice to them.
It's a small office of people who are tech phobic. I gave them the name of some people who could set them straight. But now it's just a mess. Most of these small offices are not equipped to evaluate the service properly. They buy cloud services the way they buy office supplies and copy machines. They get a few estimates and then they decide on the basis of price and personality.
Mark's words from the Forum Meeting kept echoing in my ear. Ask them how you get your stuff back. I told them to ask the question. Hopefully it turns out OK for them.
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Ah Bartleby! Ah humanity! |
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Jazzy
Administrator
Netherlands
1932 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/14/2012 : 2:47:34 PM
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quote:
They buy cloud services the way they buy office supplies and copy machines.
I like that quote.
If the cloud was the best option, I repeat IF, they should've gone Microsoft. Google can cancel your subscription in one day, is one day enough for you to download those gigabytes back to your computer? |
Jetze Mellema
Exchange specialist
Former MVP (2005-2012)
My blog: http://jetzemellema.blogspot.com (Dutch)
My company: http://www.imara-ict.nl/ |
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anthony
Moderator
USA
2373 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/14/2012 : 4:31:38 PM
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Out of curiosity, under what circumstances would Google cancel your service in one day? I have never seen this happen. I've had the opposite experience actually - customers have stopped paying and it takes 3 to 4 months to get them shut down.
Also, there are several services out there that allow you to backup everything within Google Apps (on-site or to another cloud) and manage this centrally for the entire domain. Does Microsoft's solution have that ability?
It is not my intent to argue with you, just curious about the context of the info you are giving. |
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chamezzzz
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
2298 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/14/2012 : 5:10:36 PM
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Yes, I think Jetze is giving off frustrations with regards to Google.
When you use "Google Apps for Business" you have a contract for your paid services.
You pay either monthly or annually. I have never heard of one day deletion or cut-off.
For the Google Free services, this could well be the case.
I lost my phone in South East Asia.
Could not get into my acccount. Eventually did via backup codes in my wallet (Analogue for the Win!)
The worst 24 hours of my life. So much personal data in my personal Google Account. Not financially, but just the admin and day to day stuff. Including the address of my friends in Singapore where I was returning to.
Could not get anyone from Google to contact me. No phone number. Zero contact or interest, just a web form to fill out.
You have to assess what is right for you. (The real moral of this story is stay off the Thai whiskey and don't take the Murray Head song literally when in Bangkok for one night)
also be aware of
http://www.dataliberation.org/
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James |
Edited by - chamezzzz on 05/14/2012 5:14:43 PM |
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Jazzy
Administrator
Netherlands
1932 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 02:27:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chamezzzz
Yes, I think Jetze is giving off frustrations with regards to Google.
When you use "Google Apps for Business" you have a contract for your paid services.
You pay either monthly or annually. I have never heard of one day deletion or cut-off.
Not frustrated, I just don't like their business model and think Microsoft treats their customers better and deliver a better service.
Still, for any service I recommend to do proper research to make sure the service meets your needs. An important step is to research the terms of agreement and think of worst case scenario's. For example, what if there's a conflict and the service provider decides he no longer wants you as a customer. How long will your data be available for download? With Google it's up to Google to decide, no guarantees whatsoever. Check the Terms of Agreement and see for yourself. Microsoft keeps your data for at least 90 days, unless you ask them to remove it immediately. |
Jetze Mellema
Exchange specialist
Former MVP (2005-2012)
My blog: http://jetzemellema.blogspot.com (Dutch)
My company: http://www.imara-ict.nl/ |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
4517 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 05:01:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy
Not frustrated, I just don't like their business model and think Microsoft treats their customers better and deliver a better service.
....How long will your data be available for download? With Google it's up to Google to decide, no guarantees whatsoever. Check the Terms of Agreement and see for yourself. Microsoft keeps your data for at least 90 days, unless you ask them to remove it immediately.
Just being devils advocate here, but where are the terms for both that you mention?
I can say that MS can and have made dramatic changes in licensing, availability of products and pulled support/ updates on products that effects end customers just as dramatically.
The world is not perfect, but solid information helps us make informed decisions. |
Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
http://whatismyv6.com/ |
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chamezzzz
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
2298 Posts
Status: offline |
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RichNRockville
Here To Stay
USA
265 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 06:18:56 AM
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I have a law office client that went to the cloud and loves it. They have their email and law office program on the cloud and it just works the way they like it. I can install almost any program on the cloud for them and it works.
For backup and a warm fuzzy, I installed Mozy backup to their virtual server and now they know that their data is also backed up completly off-site. I feel they have the best of both worlds. Took some used to using office 2010 but they are learning.
Rich |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
4517 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 09:00:56 AM
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I am curious - can you name the cloud storage provider, either publicly or message/ email me.
I'd love to see it myself, for how not to do it!
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Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
http://whatismyv6.com/ |
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Jazzy
Administrator
Netherlands
1932 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 10:41:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chamezzzz
I don't see any one day termination.
Search for the string "a commercially reasonable period of time" and notice that there's no guarantee for the customer that this will be long enough to migrate their data to somewhere else. They can remove the data at any time they like, it's up to Google to decide.
Microsoft's terms for Online Services are here: http://www.microsoft.com/online/mosa.aspx They guarantee to keep your data for at least 90 days.
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Jetze Mellema
Exchange specialist
Former MVP (2005-2012)
My blog: http://jetzemellema.blogspot.com (Dutch)
My company: http://www.imara-ict.nl/ |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
4517 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 11:30:45 AM
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From what I know and what I have seen by 'binging' the term, this seems to be the most concise definition of "a commercially reasonable period of time"
"Commercially reasonable" means you have to give the other party sufficient time to comply with the new terms. You can't say "We only accept XXX, effective tomorrow" when they don't have xxx, they couldn't possibly get one by tomorrow.
You basically have to give them enough time to implement the new terms.
You can't find examples because the law is intentionally vague. Should there be a difference of opinion, mediation or a civil court judge would decide if your notice was "commercially reasonable." Most of the time, common sense prevails. Give the party as much notice as you would like to be given if you were in their shoes, and you won't go wrong.
More reference here - http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm
Now, whats to say that 90 days is sufficient to pull out of your MS data out of O365, Sharepoint, Skydrive etc?
Especially if you've had to downsize, don't have 100Mb Fibre and are relying on a 3G prepay Modem to DL your data?
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Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
http://whatismyv6.com/ |
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chamezzzz
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
2298 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/15/2012 : 4:10:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy
quote:
Originally posted by chamezzzz
I don't see any one day termination.
They can remove the data at any time they like, it's up to Google to decide.
This is not true.
The facts are;
There is no one day termination for Google Apps for Business.
The termination is defined in point 11 of Googles Ts and Cs which as of 15th May 2012 are 30 or 90 days depending on the customer plan.
11. Termination.
11.1 Termination for Breach. Either party may suspend performance or terminate this Agreement if: (i) the other party is in material breach of the Agreement and fails to cure that breach within thirty days after receipt of written notice; (ii) the other party ceases its business operations or becomes subject to insolvency proceedings and the proceedings are not dismissed within ninety days; or (iii) the other party is in material breach of this Agreement more than two times notwithstanding any cure of such breaches.
11.2 Effects of Termination. If this Agreement terminates, then: (i) the rights granted by one party to the other will cease immediately (except as set forth in this Section); (ii) Google will provide Customer access to, and the ability to export, the Customer Data for a commercially reasonable period of time at Google’s then-current rates for the applicable Services; (iii) after a commercially reasonable period of time, Google will delete Customer Data by removing pointers to it on Google’s active servers and overwriting it over time; and (iv) upon request each party will promptly use commercially reasonable efforts to return or destroy all other Confidential Information of the other party. If a Customer on an annual plan terminates the Agreement prior to the conclusion of its annual plan, Google will bill Customer, and Customer is responsible for paying Google, for the remaining unpaid amount of Customer’s annual commitment. |
James |
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Curt
Moderator
USA
6652 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 4:21:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy
quote:
They buy cloud services the way they buy office supplies and copy machines.
I like that quote.
If the cloud was the best option, I repeat IF, they should've gone Microsoft. Google can cancel your subscription in one day, is one day enough for you to download those gigabytes back to your computer?
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Curt Spanburgh
Microsoft Certified Business Solution Specialist.
Dynamics CRM MVP
Contributing Editor, Windows IT Pro
He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.
Proverbs 13:20
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Curt
Moderator
USA
6652 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 4:24:18 PM
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Is there any place in a technical world for a tech phobic person?
Technology is not like you hire a cleaning service because you don't want to clean.
Moving to the cloud is not having someone do all the tech for you.
But Sales folks sell it that way.
Anyway, I have seen this behavior.
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Curt Spanburgh
Microsoft Certified Business Solution Specialist.
Dynamics CRM MVP
Contributing Editor, Windows IT Pro
He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.
Proverbs 13:20
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Curt
Moderator
USA
6652 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 4:26:50 PM
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Well....... It's not that great so far with MSFT, but their working on it.
quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy
quote:
Originally posted by chamezzzz
Yes, I think Jetze is giving off frustrations with regards to Google.
When you use "Google Apps for Business" you have a contract for your paid services.
You pay either monthly or annually. I have never heard of one day deletion or cut-off.
Not frustrated, I just don't like their business model and think Microsoft treats their customers better and deliver a better service.
Still, for any service I recommend to do proper research to make sure the service meets your needs. An important step is to research the terms of agreement and think of worst case scenario's. For example, what if there's a conflict and the service provider decides he no longer wants you as a customer. How long will your data be available for download? With Google it's up to Google to decide, no guarantees whatsoever. Check the Terms of Agreement and see for yourself. Microsoft keeps your data for at least 90 days, unless you ask them to remove it immediately.
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Curt Spanburgh
Microsoft Certified Business Solution Specialist.
Dynamics CRM MVP
Contributing Editor, Windows IT Pro
He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.
Proverbs 13:20
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x7c00
Here To Stay
USA
133 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 9:48:10 PM
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So what is the best solution for a small business like this. 6-8 people spread over 3 offices in 2 different cities. They previously used an old server in an office where the Internet and power took turns going out on a regular basis.
From what I got from the woman's exasperated speech the 2 outside offices used a Windows VPN to connect to the file server at the main office. But the power/Internet outages were becoming more frequent. So, having heard much about the Sainted Cloud from professional contacts they began their search.
Previous to this the only other computer, data, IT, blinking light box, service thingies that they had purchased was a crappy bottom of the line Ricoh printer/copier 4 years before.
Like most consumers they took the lowest price offered by the whitest smile.
I like O365 because people are very familiar and comfortable with Outlook. But when you try to explain Sharepoint to people they glaze over. On the other hand Google Apps' Google Docs has the word Docs in the title. Sicily as this sounds I at least can get that far with them. It seems lots of, especially younger, people in the office are somewhat familiar with the whole Google Docs routine. I can have them Google Docing in minutes.
The only people familiar with Sharepoint are folks who are comming from Big companies where someone built the Sharepoint sites for them. Sharepoint is a big beautiful beast. Not many small offices have the wherewithal to implement it.
Is there a better way to move the document handling thing to the cloud for a small budget business? I don't think VSphear or Amazon is right for them. Box has some very good features and it works well with GApps. Google Apps seems to be the best choice. I like the O365 mail but Sharepoint just seems like way too much trouble for a small office.
Timmmmmmmmmm
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Ah Bartleby! Ah humanity! |
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x7c00
Here To Stay
USA
133 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 10:39:51 PM
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Belay that. I just found this very helpful discussion from not too long ago.
http://web2.minasi.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39188.
I know I'm going to take a beating from Sharpoint fans but be nice. Most small office people I meet don't have the time or inclination to study and work with Sharepoint. And i hope the Sharepoint that comes with Office 365 is better than the Sharepoint that came with BPOS. The BPOS Sharepoint was terrible.
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Ah Bartleby! Ah humanity! |
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chamezzzz
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
2298 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 04:05:21 AM
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Cost wise - Google Apps for Business is likely the best choice.
Docs has been renamed to Google Drive and no longer seems to insist on converting Office documents to Google Formats.
But this is just my opinion. Google Apps is by and large disliked around this forum.
I am not its biggest fan but for a small situation like yourself, it is the ideal solution. Especially when you do a cost analysis. |
James |
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Jazzy
Administrator
Netherlands
1932 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 06:13:51 AM
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And that's exactly where many customers go wrong. They try to decide primarily based on costs. And there's nothing wrong with that, when you do it properly. I think customers should do (in this order):
- Write down their technical requirements (capacity, bandwith, etc.)
- Write down their functional requirements (need to share documents with people, need to archive e-mail messages, etc.)
- Write down their business requirements (need 24x7 phone support, uptime guarantee, etc.)
- Evaluate the offerings, compare them against the requirements
- Go/no-go moment: is the cloud ready for us or not?
- Do costs analysis (migration, costs of lost functionality, upgraded bandwith, end-user training, etc.)
- Choose the cloud provider
- Do a pilot
- Go/no-go moment: what works on paper, does it work in practice?
- Perform migration
Being a small business is no excuses for not thinking it through. :)
So yes, I like Microsoft and the services they offer better than Google's at the moment. But more important, I want my customers to think for them selfs. Don't listen to what the vendors tell you, they're only in it to make money and to beat their opponent. Don't do it like this lawyer's office did because it will cost you. |
Jetze Mellema
Exchange specialist
Former MVP (2005-2012)
My blog: http://jetzemellema.blogspot.com (Dutch)
My company: http://www.imara-ict.nl/ |
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Curt
Moderator
USA
6652 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 07:10:30 AM
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Don't expect Google to be in this business for long.
I've heard they let go the folks who developed it and are only keeping it now for a cash cow to make some money before they drop it.
Don't look for support from a culture like that.
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Curt Spanburgh
Microsoft Certified Business Solution Specialist.
Dynamics CRM MVP
Contributing Editor, Windows IT Pro
He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.
Proverbs 13:20
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aed
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
1213 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 09:09:07 AM
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| I've always found Google Docs (Drive, whatever) to be simple and easy to use so have pointed friends and family to it for personal use. Perhaps it's like the whole Apple vs Windows tablet (phone) war. Apple makes it simple and easy to use but MS makes it manageable and secure. |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
3150 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 3:29:47 PM
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quote:
I want my customers to think for them selfs. Don't listen to what the vendors tell you, they're only in it to make money and to beat their opponent.
Perhaps one day. . .
But not today.
JamesNT |
James Summerlin
www.jamessummerlin.com |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
4517 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 3:35:26 PM
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I think, that if you can't explain or ask in three lines to a small customer, you've lost the deal unless they are specifically technology based.
I had a customer tell me the following high tech detail for a product he wanted
"...you see that thing on the Apprentice about 30 minutes ago...the thingy...I want that..."
I've found that they all assume you are available 24/7, that it will always be up and that bandwidth is always available and free and your services are free.
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Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
http://whatismyv6.com/ |
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aval
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
3276 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 4:48:11 PM
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quote:
I've heard they let go the folks who developed it and are only keeping it now for a cash cow to make some money before they drop it.
Google Apps / Docs ? |
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Curt
Moderator
USA
6652 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 5:06:55 PM
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Yes, I heard the main visionary for it all is gone.
He resigned because they were not planning to move forward and invest in it.
I heard it on the radio a few months ago.
Apple has them cold.
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Curt Spanburgh
Microsoft Certified Business Solution Specialist.
Dynamics CRM MVP
Contributing Editor, Windows IT Pro
He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.
Proverbs 13:20
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
3150 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 6:20:12 PM
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quote:
I've found that they all assume you are available 24/7, that it will always be up and that bandwidth is always available and free and your services are free.
Amen, brother. All of my clients are doctors. They bitch and complain about any invoice I send them. Yet, to a one, they all have signs in their offices that say "COPAY DUE UPON ARRIVAL."
JamesNT |
James Summerlin
www.jamessummerlin.com |
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Pesos
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
3505 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 4:23:05 PM
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| We have helped a few smaller orgs move to a combo of o365 and DropboxForTeams. Works out great. Google mail/apps sucks in my opinion. That is my opinion. Key word, opinion. As in, what I think based on my own experience. Subjective. Opinion. |
-Wes |
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chamezzzz
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
2298 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 5:06:13 PM
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Yep,
See my complaints about Google Apps here
http://www.minasi.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39209
If you want the cheapest option it is Google Apps (though I don't think this includes archiving by default)
If you are willing to pay more and have a richer familiar experience that Outlook provides then you want Office 365 and perhaps the Sharepoint option? Or as Wes said Dropbox. (again, I don't know about archiving and as your client are lawyers, I imagine this will be a requisite)
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James |
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Cloud Storage the wrong way.
