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mm_0_mm
Old Timer
USA
511 Posts
Status: offline |
 Posted - 06/23/2008 : 1:02:24 PM
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With NT4 Dhcp admin you could copy the mac address from an existing lease and paste it when creating a reservation. With DHCP managment mmc you can't do it. Really, how hard would it be to add a context menu item "make reservation" when you right-click an existing lease?
In File Manager you could highlight a file and choose "Open by..." to see who had a file open... |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 4:20:04 PM
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quote:
If your in the middle of a few things and the way differernt windows popin/ popout while your typing.
That drives me completely daft.
This is typically caused not by Windows but by the offending application. Many applications, upon startup, attempt to place the cursor in a default field which grabs focus. For example, in the billing software we use when you open up the Patient Manager, the Patient Manager places the cursor in the Patient ID field in the assumption that one of the first things you are going to do is search for a patient or enter a new one. This action, of course, grabs focus from whatever you were working on which drives some of our users "completely daft."
Again, don't be in such a hurry to blame Windows. Some apps think they are so totally awesome that they should have focus all the time. I remember when Real Player would place itself on top of any active window every 15 or so seconds.
Want to try an experiment to see what I'm talking about? Pull up IE and go to Google.com. Don't click on a link in favorites, type it into the address field. After pressing enter, the last location of the cursor is in the address field, right? After Google finishes loading, where is the cursor now?
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
Edited by - JamesNT on 06/24/2008 4:36:11 PM |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 4:29:29 PM
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quote:
I guess my bottom line would be: productivity-wise, do you really see an improvement in modern OS? You would think that the code would be optimized to take advantage of such a fast hardware. You would think that having so much extra computing power all OS-related operations would be performed quietly without you even noticing it. I don't see it at all. Maybe I am getting more impatient with age, but any second the system acts as it is deciding what kind of weird error message to throw at you this time round to leave you stunned again is just aggrevating.
Yes, absolutely. Today's modern operating systems handle multiple tasks beautifully as opposed to the NT 4 days. In regards to all the extra computing power, consider the following:
1. I already mentioned that today's OS's do way more than yesterday's in regards to graphics, features, etc. Pull up the task manager in NT 4 then pull up the task manager in Vista. See the difference? In Vista you have the wireless service, consentui.exe for UAC, and many other services that NT4 never saw. Did NT4 have to worry about USB, running a firewall, or anything like that? How much do you think today's anti-virus bogs down a machine as opposed to 1998 Norton Anti-virus? Did NT4 have remote desktop and remote assistance? These things take CPU cycles, people. How big do you think the spell checker is in Office 2007 as opposed to Office 97? You must wrap your head around this concept.
2. Windows Vista is highly optimized. If not, it would take forever for Vista to make a whole new terminal services session, create a bitmap background of your desktop, gray it out, and disable customized mouse cursors for UAC. And don't forget superfetch.
3. You also have other limits to consider. Let's say NT4 can draw a line on a screen in .005 ms. Vista can do it in .0005 ms. In regards to your seeing performance, what is the new bottleneck (Hint: how fast does light travel and how fast can the human eye render new perceptions?)?
Yes, today we have outrageously fast hardware and RAM at less than $50 a gig. But we also ask that much more of our computers so yes, there is a perception you must beware of.
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 4:33:52 PM
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Just a reminder to all - I'm not here to nitpick and I'm not some MS shill who is defending The Empire at all costs (which reminds me, I'm almost out of Kool-aide). What I want us to do is make certain we have the right man in the cross hairs when we march forward with our pitchforks and torches. In many cases, we really need to be screaming at the third party guys to fix their ****. Screaming at MS may be fun and easy, but in cases such as these it will not solve our problems and the third party guys will continue to get away with charging us out the buttocks for crap we have to maintain.
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
Edited by - JamesNT on 06/24/2008 4:39:15 PM |
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JSCLMEDAVE
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
4685 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 4:36:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesNT
the third party guys will continue to get away with charging us out the buttocks for crap we have to maintain.
JamesNT
Amen! IBM WebSphere! |
Tim-
"Will the woman who left her 9 kids at Wrigley field please come and claim them? - they're beating the Cubs 5-0"
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Brian Walker
Old Timer
USA
529 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 5:20:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JSCLMEDAVE
quote:
Originally posted by JamesNT
the third party guys will continue to get away with charging us out the buttocks for crap we have to maintain.
JamesNT
Amen! IBM WebSphere!
And anything made by Symantec that has anything to do with Antivirus!
What annoys me most could only be blamed on Windows in the context that it is allowed to happen. We all learned long ago that DLL files in the wrong place (i.e., NOT %windir%/System32) can cause BSOD's, yet how many of you have been following install instructions for software (e.g. printer drivers) on XP that explicitly tell you to click on the "continue anyway" button? Say what you want, but MS did that specifically to keep 3rd party apps from crashing Windows because they knew they would get blamed for it.
The other thing: Programs that are not multi-user-OS aware. Windows 2000 has been out for 8 years, and XP (including HOME edition) has been out for 6, yet people are STILL writing software that requires Admin priveleges to run! It's like software developers forgot (or were never told) what GIGO is.
There are others, but my blood pressure is high enough...
(...climbs off very tall soapbox)
P.S. I am not a MS fanboi either, but some of the junk we put up with that is passed off as software really amazes me.
P.P.S. At my old job I had a Windows 95 machine (P200MMX, 32MB) that ran one app: our PBX software (95 was the only OS supported). Other than rebooting it once every 3 weeks for good measure, it performed that task flawlessly.
(...whoops, this soapbox is taller than I thought!)
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arek73
Moderator
Poland
4592 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 11:45:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesNT
1. I already mentioned that today's OS's do way more than yesterday's in regards to graphics, features, etc. Pull up the task manager in NT 4 then pull up the task manager in Vista. See the difference? In Vista you have the wireless service, consentui.exe for UAC, and many other services that NT4 never saw. Did NT4 have to worry about USB, running a firewall, or anything like that?
Exactly my point, James. Half of the processes and executables running by default are not needed. Don't make everyone happy by default with what you as a programmer consider important. And I don't need wireless on desktop, nor I need RDP or Remote Assistance on my home computer. You didn't have USB back then, but you had ISA, PCI, VESA, SCSI and other things to worry about.
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How much do you think today's anti-virus bogs down a machine as opposed to 1998 Norton Anti-virus?
Good point. We all can agree that modern AV software many times acts just as one big malware.
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How big do you think the spell checker is in Office 2007 as opposed to Office 97? You must wrap your head around this concept.
Who cares? I didn't find anything wrong with spell checker in Office 97. It did the job exactly as expected. And Polish grammar is more complicated than English, mind you. And Office 97's footprint was probably 10 times smaller than 2007. IMHO, for an average Joe using 5-10% features of Office nothing changed at all.
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2. Windows Vista is highly optimized. If not, it would take forever for Vista to make a whole new terminal services session, create a bitmap background of your desktop, gray it out, and disable customized mouse cursors for UAC. And don't forget superfetch.
Ehm... Have you heard about 64 KB demo? If not, check it out here: http://theproduct.de
This is what I call efficient programming. Granted, taken to extreme. But modern PCs should have more than enough PCs to do really simple things like mentioned by you background refresh or other visual gimmicks _without_ slowing the computer down. Besides, these are marginal things. Not really a selling point for new OS.
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3. You also have other limits to consider. Let's say NT4 can draw a line on a screen in .005 ms. Vista can do it in .0005 ms. In regards to your seeing performance, what is the new bottleneck (Hint: how fast does light travel and how fast can the human eye render new perceptions?)?
As I mentioned, I used to do graphics design in my previous life. An old, VESA-based S3 accelerator card for 75 bucks circa 1996 was sufficient to refresh the screen without delays. Enough to work on large files for pre-press with acceptable lag. I really don't think things have changed all that much. Again, we are talking productivity.
quote:
Yes, today we have outrageously fast hardware and RAM at less than $50 a gig. But we also ask that much more of our computers so yes, there is a perception you must beware of.
But do we really get what we ask for? I think more ofthen than not we just quietly accept mediocrity, cleverly hidden behind half-stunning graphics or other CPU/GPU-wasting piece of code.
Alright, time for vacation. See you guys in couple of days. |
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Arek |
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mitachu
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
1768 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 07:48:20 AM
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Is Dungeon Seige really that good? ;)
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Tim |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 08:01:35 AM
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arek,
You raise some excellent points. Unfortunately, though I feel we are agreeing on certain details, our point of view regarding those details is still not in alignment. Please permit me to elaborate further.
quote:
Exactly my point, James. Half of the processes and executables running by default are not needed. Don't make everyone happy by default with what you as a programmer consider important. And I don't need wireless on desktop, nor I need RDP or Remote Assistance on my home computer. You didn't have USB back then, but you had ISA, PCI, VESA, SCSI and other things to worry about.
This is excellent, Arek. You and I do agree on this detail, but from different angles. The problem here is that you are looking at this from your specific point of view. Microsoft has to look at this from the point of view of millions of people. That's why for you half the services running are not needed, but may be needed by someone else. The only way MS can possibly know which services and executables you don't is through mind reading and clairvoyance. Since those two things are impossible (despite what my stupid clients say), MS has no choice but to fall back to statistics. How is MS supposed to know that you will be installing Vista on a desktop and should therefore disable the wireless service? How do you account for those desktops out there that have wireless cards?
The good news is that MS gives us the abilities to tune the OS. You can pull up services.msc and turn off those services you do not need - which I do.
This reminds me of my Trans Am. It was a good car from the factory, but half the crap on it I didn't need and the engine was too inefficient for the street racing I wanted to do. So I ripped out all the safety stuff and took apart the engine. By the time I as done, I had a 7.0 second 1/8 mile street car.
quote:
Who cares? I didn't find anything wrong with spell checker in Office 97. It did the job exactly as expected. And Polish grammar is more complicated than English, mind you. And Office 97's footprint was probably 10 times smaller than 2007. IMHO, for an average Joe using 5-10% features of Office nothing changed at all.
Isn't that the problem? In your opinion? Remember all those new office suites that came out in the 90's that boasted a smaller footprint than MS Office, were easier to use, and didn't have all the "bloat?" Have you ever wondered why none of them are here today? Because each person using a different 5% - 10% of those features. The market has already disproved your theory.
quote:
Ehm... Have you heard about 64 KB demo? If not, check it out here: http://theproduct.de
This is what I call efficient programming. Granted, taken to extreme. But modern PCs should have more than enough PCs to do really simple things like mentioned by you background refresh or other visual gimmicks _without_ slowing the computer down. Besides, these are marginal things. Not really a selling point for new OS.
Arek, you're a smart guy. I give you all the credit in the world. So I gotta ask, why in the hell did you show me this demo as an example of efficient programming?
This is not efficient programming. It's very nice, don't get me wrong, but it isn't a good example of efficient programming.
quote:
But do we really get what we ask for? I think more ofthen than not we just quietly accept mediocrity, cleverly hidden behind half-stunning graphics or other CPU/GPU-wasting piece of code.
Whether or not you get what you ask for depends on you, the individual. None of us really gets what we ask for because we are using an OS that must appeal to millions of people, not just us as individual. So yes, there are trade-offs. Yes, there are features running that eat up the occassional CPU cycle that you, as the individual, may not need. But as soon as MS removes that feature, these 10,000 people over here are going to bitch about it. How many times have you said, "Why am I having to turn this on? This should be installed and ready to go by default!!!"
As I mentioned before, it is possible to seriously increase the performance of Vista. Follow the procedure I layed out earlier and turn off all the graphics. Go with the Windows 2000 look. You can also turn off Data Execution Prevention and get even more performance. And don't forget about turning off UAC.
But look at the price you pay. An ugly interface, and far less security.
This entire conversation reminds me of the situation I am in now with some programming I'm doing. The company that sold us the billing software that we use now contracts us to do development work on that exact same billing software since we're a large customer who has the expertise they need. The company gives me the list of stuff they want done to fit the needs of their 3000 or so customers. Unfortunately, some of those things my boss could care less about and he has no problems whatsoever interjecting his needs ahead of the other company's. My boss sees what's going on only from the point of view of what helps his business. I've probably put in almost half a dozen features into this software the actual owner of the software didn't ask for. And one feature was in direct conflict with what other people needed. So how do I deal with this situation? Simple, I compromise. I draw a line down the middle with my boss's needs on one side and the needs of the client on the other. As I'm certain everyone can guess, there are days my boss is happy with me and days he is not - days the customer is happy with me and days they are not.
Just like us with Microsoft.
Have a happy and safe vacation, Arek.
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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mitachu
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
1768 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 08:39:28 AM
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Let's say a laptop has no wireless card installed. It doesn't need the WZC service running - agreed? Therefore it could be Disabled or set to Manual. As soon as a wireless NIC is installed, it could then be started. Surely this isn't hard?
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Tim |
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chamezzzz
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
United Kingdom
1855 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 5:19:03 PM
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Start Up.
I built a Lenovo T60 today 4GB of Ram - Windows Vista 64-bit edition.
Patched it. Re-booted - used Lenovo System update - I am sure many of you know the drill.
I have built the laptop clean from install media. No A/v Installed - no applications other than drivers and Lenovo bumpf.
Why does the bloody thing still log on with a swirling circle for a mouse icon?
Just give me the GUI will you please for the love of God when you decide to present the desktop - or just delay it and don't present it at all.
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James |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 8:28:09 PM
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quote:
Just give me the GUI will you please for the love of God when you decide to present the desktop - or just delay it and don't present it at all.
That's the way Windows 2000 did it and people complained about how slow Windows was to show the desktop.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Say, isn't there a group policy setting for this or does something similar to it?
Try this: Open up the Group Policy Editor and go to COMPUTER SETTINGS | ADMINISTRATIVE TEMPLATES | SYSTEM | LOGON and enable the option that says "Always wait for the network at startup and login."
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
Edited by - JamesNT on 06/25/2008 8:38:26 PM |
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mikepiet
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
1842 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/26/2008 : 12:32:01 PM
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I thought this pretty much sums up my opinion of working with windows. It's a truly legit email from Bill Gates after he tried to download something from MS's website and then install it...
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/141821.asp
Full text: An epic Bill Gates e-mail rant
---- Original Message ----
From: Bill Gates
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:05 AM
To: Jim Allchin
Cc: Chris Jones (WINDOWS); Bharat Shah (NT); Joe Peterson; Will Poole; Brian Valentine; Anoop Gupta (RESEARCH)
Subject: Windows Usability Systematic degradation flame
I am quite disappointed at how Windows Usability has been going backwards and the program management groups don't drive usability issues.
Let me give you my experience from yesterday.
I decided to download (Moviemaker) and buy the Digital Plus pack ... so I went to Microsoft.com. They have a download place so I went there.
The first 5 times I used the site it timed out while trying to bring up the download page. Then after an 8 second delay I got it to come up.
This site is so slow it is unusable.
It wasn't in the top 5 so I expanded the other 45.
These 45 names are totally confusing. These names make stuff like: C:\Documents and Settings\billg\My Documents\My Pictures seem clear.
They are not filtered by the system ... and so many of the things are strange.
I tried scoping to Media stuff. Still no moviemaker. I typed in movie. Nothing. I typed in movie maker. Nothing.
So I gave up and sent mail to Amir saying - where is this Moviemaker download? Does it exist?
So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated.
They told me to go to the main page search button and type movie maker (not moviemaker!).
I tried that. The site was pathetically slow but after 6 seconds of waiting up it came.
I thought for sure now I would see a button to just go do the download.
In fact it is more like a puzzle that you get to solve. It told me to go to Windows Update and do a bunch of incantations.
This struck me as completely odd. Why should I have to go somewhere else and do a scan to download moviemaker?
So I went to Windows update. Windows Update decides I need to download a bunch of controls. (Not) just once but multiple times where I get to see weird dialog boxes.
Doesn't Windows update know some key to talk to Windows?
Then I did the scan. This took quite some time and I was told it was critical for me to download 17megs of stuff.
This is after I was told we were doing delta patches to things but instead just to get 6 things that are labeled in the SCARIEST possible way I had to download 17meg.
So I did the download. That part was fast. Then it wanted to do an install. This took 6 minutes and the machine was so slow I couldn't use it for anything else during this time.
What the heck is going on during those 6 minutes? That is crazy. This is after the download was finished.
Then it told me to reboot my machine. Why should I do that? I reboot every night -- why should I reboot at that time?
So I did the reboot because it INSISTED on it. Of course that meant completely getting rid of all my Outlook state.
So I got back up and running and went to Windows Update again. I forgot why I was in Windows Update at all since all I wanted was to get Moviemaker.
So I went back to Microsoft.com and looked at the instructions. I have to click on a folder called WindowsXP. Why should I do that? Windows Update knows I am on Windows XP.
What does it mean to have to click on that folder? So I get a bunch of confusing stuff but sure enough one of them is Moviemaker.
So I do the download. The download is fast but the Install takes many minutes. Amazing how slow this thing is.
At some point I get told I need to go get Windows Media Series 9 to download.
So I decide I will go do that. This time I get dialogs saying things like "Open" or "Save". No guidance in the instructions which to do. I have no clue which to do.
The download is fast and the install takes 7 minutes for this thing.
So now I think I am going to have Moviemaker. I go to my add/remove programs place to make sure it is there.
It is not there.
What is there? The following garbage is there. Microsoft Autoupdate Exclusive test package, Microsoft Autoupdate Reboot test package, Microsoft Autoupdate testpackage1. Microsoft AUtoupdate testpackage2, Microsoft Autoupdate Test package3.
Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up.
But that is just the start of the crap. Later I have listed things like Windows XP Hotfix see Q329048 for more information. What is Q329048? Why are these series of patches listed here? Some of the patches just things like Q810655 instead of saying see Q329048 for more information.
What an absolute mess.
Moviemaker is just not there at all.
So I give up on Moviemaker and decide to download the Digital Plus Package.
I get told I need to go enter a bunch of information about myself.
I enter it all in and because it decides I have mistyped something I have to try again. Of course it has cleared out most of what I typed.
I try (typing) the right stuff in 5 times and it just keeps clearing things out for me to type them in again.
So after more than an hour of craziness and making my programs list garbage and being scared and seeing that Microsoft.com is a terrible website I haven't run Moviemaker and I haven't got the plus package.
The lack of attention to usability represented by these experiences blows my mind. I thought we had reached a low with Windows Network places or the messages I get when I try to use 802.11. (don't you just love that root certificate message?)
When I really get to use the stuff I am sure I will have more feedback.
When we were concluding our interview last week, I showed Gates a printout of the e-mail and asked if he ever got Movie Maker to work. Gates noted that Microsoft plans to include Movie Maker as part of Windows Live, so people will get the program when they download that online package. The company isn't confirming that officially yet, but's not a complete surprise. See this Wikipedia entry and this related post on LiveSide.net. (Site temporarily down as of Tuesday morning.) |
Sinners Make The Best Saints |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/28/2008 : 5:56:19 PM
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Everyone,
Please remember that millions of people use Windows. And all those people have a voice to some degree. I, for one, don't really care for the network center. HOWEVER, I can understand why it exists. The vast majority of people I know don't know crap about networking or have rudimentary skills at best. So something like the networking center in Vista explains it better to them than what we had in XP. Since I understand why this thing is the way it is, I don't complain. I just do my job and hope the network center helps those who don't know as much as I do about networking.
Most of the complaining I hear is coming from people who are at least as smart as I am if not smarter (a.k.a all of you) because they don't need all the hand-holding, default services, and all that. Truly, I sympathize. But all of you are the minority. There are more aunt Marj's in the universe than there are you. So we get things like the networking center. Consider the following:
1. If you had one Mark Minasi and 15 Aunt Marj's and you had to design an operating system, do you design in preparation for the needs of Aunt Marj or for the needs of Mark Minasi?
2. Many of us are complaining about the default settings of Windows and how you don't need certain services because those unneeded services just slow you down. Would you rather MS use a statistical bell curve to determine what services should be on by default for everyone and give you the ability to turn things on or off at will? Or would you rather have another 32, or more, editions of Vista each with default configurations for different types of people (and we are assuming MS can determine what categories we are in)?
3. Do you want to be the person who blames the $30 copy of Windows (OEM pricing) that came with your PC for everything that goes wrong because its fun and easy but does nothing to solve your problems? Or do you want to be the person that peels back layers of the onion to discover, much to your horror, that the $5,000.00 copy of some line-of-business app had developers that took shortcuts and the app needs admin rights to run and that's why there are viruses on your network along with various incompatibilities?
These questions, as we can see, have no easy answers. You aren't going to please everyone and it takes effort and patience to dig deep into a situation to see what the root cause really is.
Microsoft has successfully been able to draw that center line - that line where most people are happy with you and only a little perturbed once in a while - and all the people that truly hate you are all contained at slashdot. No wonder Microsoft is the market leader forever and ever. Amen.
Last, but not least, I fall back on a few web links:
http://blogs.technet.com/askperf/archive/2008/06/03/access-violation-how-dare-you.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/23/45481.aspx
https://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/24/45779.aspx
And I leave you with a phrase made famous by the great Poet, Writer, Photographer, Artist, and Performer, Mark Minasi:
"If all this stuff was easy, we'd all have to go get real jobs and, well, that would suck."
JamesNT
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I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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Doug G
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
2096 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 10:54:04 PM
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You know, James, you're not doing Microsoft any favors by being so defensive about complaints people may have. I've always gone on the principle that I only complain to companies I like, never telling companies I hate about what I see as flaws gives me pleasure, hoping they never fix their problems and go out of business soon. Forward-thinking companies welcome and solicit complainers, complaints about products give information they can use to make their products and services better.
That said, another bitch of mine is that the 'add-remove programs' doesn't give you any link to see what the executable is for the listed programs, and it wasn't until Vista that MS even thought the installation date would be useful information.
$0000000.02
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Doug G
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 12:12:39 AM
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Doug,
I'm not trying to do Microsoft any favors. The ultimate point is simple: Make sure you have the right guy in your cross-hairs before you fire. Too many times Windows gets blamed for something a third party did. Not only is that unfair, but it solves nothing as the third party just goes right on selling their crap.
Look at how long it took Quickbooks to finally get around to not needing admin rights to run. And even then, look how they screwed their customers. I know plenty of people who had Quickbooks 2006 less than six months - but if you wanted Quickbooks on Vista, it meant an upgrade to 2007. Do you call a forced upgrade like that customer service?
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
Edited by - JamesNT on 07/01/2008 12:13:20 AM |
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cj_berlin
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Germany
3098 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 04:06:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug G
That said, another bitch of mine is that the 'add-remove programs' doesn't give you any link to see what the executable is for the listed programs,
What executable would you have liked to see for, say, Adobe CS3 Premium? Just wondering...
Besides, you could well use an MSI to apply settings and copy non-executable files - what then? |
Evgenij Smirnov
MISSION CRITICAL Business IT Services Ltd.
Revolutionising the PC desktop at a fixed rate (in German only):
PCohnePC.DE |
Edited by - cj_berlin on 07/01/2008 04:07:22 AM |
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Doug G
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
2096 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 7:38:49 PM
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quote:
What executable would you have liked to see for, say, Adobe CS3 Premium? Just wondering...
any one that's associated. When you get to work on consumer systems with tons of who knows what software installed, with program names you've never heard of, it would be nice when looking down the list of installed programs to get some clue where they live on the filesystem. Just like with the new hardware wizard not providing any info about the failing hardware. In both cases the windows code at the time knows what I want to know, just refuses to pass along that info to me.
Providing "dumbed-down" OS messages seems to be one of the guiding principle of windows. and it's something that always annoys me. You get unhelpful dialog messages or completely incomprehensible dr. watson or bsod messages, there seems to be no half-way point for us moderately technical types. Oh well, at least windows gives me a chance to exercise my vocal cords with high-volume profanity once in a while ...
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Doug G
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 8:00:27 PM
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Doug,
quote:
In both cases the windows code at the time knows what I want to know, just refuses to pass along that info to me.
I'd like to know where you think Windows stores that information. I'm not trying to start anything, I genuinely want to know. Since I subscribe to MSDN and have all the SDK's, this might be something fun to play with later on.
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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mikepiet
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
USA
1842 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 11:02:33 PM
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Microsoft's whole add\remove programs applet is a nightmare. Good thing far superior products out there exist that do everything a good uninstaller should.
My favorite, RevoUninstaller (the portable version so I can use it on friends\family machines when fixing them)
http://www.revouninstaller.com/
Michael |
Sinners Make The Best Saints |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 10:38:48 AM
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Mike,
What is "everything a good installer should?"
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 10:46:43 AM
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Brian Walker,
quote:
What annoys me most could only be blamed on Windows in the context that it is allowed to happen.
For your easy reading pleasure:
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2006/02/16/533250.aspx
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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Brian Walker
Old Timer
USA
529 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 11:13:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesNT
Brian Walker,
quote:
What annoys me most could only be blamed on Windows in the context that it is allowed to happen.
For your easy reading pleasure:
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2006/02/16/533250.aspx
JamesNT
James,
I feel the need to clarify what I wrote above, as I can now see that it was a little murky.
I am not saying that Windows is to blame. I guess I was trying to "trap" those who think it is. The logic being if Windows "allows" it to happen, then Windows should be "fixed" to not allow it to happen. And when 80% of current apps fail to run on Windows anymore, then what? (Although this would be very funny if it said something like, "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that"!)
IMO, Windows has the market share it has due to its flexibility, both with users, and with programmers. One of my favorite sayings is, "Security is not convenient, and convenience is not secure." There has to be a happy medium. Windows is very flexible. Unfortunately, there are those that exploited that "flexiblilty" to create thing such as viruses, worms, trojans, etc. And there are those who write sloppy code for whatever reason (laziness, deadlines, etc).
Microsoft is in a no-win situation: either they let people do what they want and let the OS get hosed, or they secure the OS and people complain about it (Vista's UAC for example). I, for one, think they do a really good job given what they have to work with.
There is a lot of "Linux" this, "Open Source" that. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for you, then fine. But until I see Joe Average Computer User buy a laptop with Ubuntu and say, "This is great!", I don't think MS has anything to worry about, annoyances or not. And don't get me started on Macs, I'll just tell you to go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVwbhsqEyNI (But turn your volume down first, may not be safe for work).
I hope I have clarified my position. My previous post was written way too hastily. I will try to do better. 
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 11:20:54 AM
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Brian,
Clarify your position truly you did (too much Yoda there?). And I hope and pray I did not rub you the wrong way as that truly was not my intent.
However, if you haven't read the story in the link, I recommend you do anyway. It's entertaining and also explains why some of the power management features before Windows Vista didn't work they way they should have.
Thanks for your response, my man. It's always great to have that "on the same page" feeling.
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
3000 Posts
Status: online |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 3:07:44 PM
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James,
I haven't read much more about this post, yet, but I did try your experiment. Not sure if I'm missing something ie the cursor or what I should be seeing.
I prepared to accept that different applications give different demands/ requests etc but if I'm working in one window and thats the active window, what allows the applications to grab my cursor focus? |
Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
“If you think competence is expensive,try incompetence.” - From a Training Manual |
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JamesNT
Moderator
USA
2485 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 3:31:00 PM
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A developer can have his application check to see if his window is the active window or if there are other windows on top of his. For example, you could set a timer to count 15 seconds then see if your window is not on top or is not active then set ACTIVE = TRUE then place focus on one of your controls, such as a text box.
If you used RealPlayer back in the 90's then you've seen the behavior I speak of.
As I've stated here and elsewhere, when you install an app on your computer, you make three assumptions:
1. The app is well written.
2. The app plays well with others.
3. The entity that wrote the app is trustworthy.
Some companies think their app is so totally awesome that they should have focus all the time. Well written apps that play well with others don't steal focus from the active app when they have something new to say - instead they send the "notify" command to their icon in the task bar to make it blink orange. If you've ever used MSN Messenger and had it in the background when someone sends you an im, you know what talking about.
JamesNT |
I should learn how to speed read. It seems like every time I turn around I have to read another 400 pages of documentation. |
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wobble_wobble
Honorable But Hopeless Addict
Ireland
3000 Posts
Status: online |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 3:57:13 PM
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Thats what I'd like to see....not some random dance of windows across your screen, or worse, the damn information window hidden under their own un-movable installer splash screen.
Just trying to pick you brains here James, thanks.
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Joe
After everything that has happened during the month of Jan 07, I do believe that pigs fly backwards!
“If you think competence is expensive,try incompetence.” - From a Training Manual |
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What narks you about Windows?
